Stawell Results

adding samy latu to the blackbook for next years gift, big improver at stawell this year and caught my eye
peter budge was a well earnt win and was the form athlete heading in
and the masters races were quality as always, its time for stawell to put some money into them

Great shout Birdman, any names in the mens and womens gift that’s going to be cherry ripe and ready to explode for a stawell gift final next year? Tim the tipster Rosen would have some after nailing some tips Friday night.

Mark Withheld wrote:Foxcatcher, you attitude is a bloody disgrace. "If you want honest running go back to the tartan." Some of those on here, defending obvious dodgey behaviour should take up a role as a steward and/or handicapper and put yourself in a position to deal with appalling head-scratching, reversals of form that happend from the same squads every Easter. Not everyone is trying to f*** over the handicapper. Those that do, have no moral compass and ruin a great sport.
Stawell Gift carnival was a disgrace, so many dodgey results.
I feel sorry for the handicappers who are good people trying to help the sport, who got f***** over by so called friends.
A lot of runners were lucky to escape the Pellow treatment.
Don't complain when you get called out and your mate gets a lengthy suspension.
This is why the VAL can't attract a decent steward willing to hand out UPs and NAPs. When they do caught they cry "persecution" and "I'm being picked on".
The VAL badly needs a steward who treats the dodgey trainers and the athletes with the same contempt they treat the handicappers.
Until then, this shit will continue to happen.

As a wise man one said: "If you don't have integrity, you have nothing. You can't buy it. You can have all the Stawell sashes you want, but if you are not a moral and ethical person, you really have nothing."

Mark, have you edited the post to try and attribute a personal quote to a wise man… I think those with stawell sashes sleep quite easily at night my friend.

So my prediction is that none of the people whinging on here will ever win a Stawell sash...seriously! I'm assuming Feidler's copping the most heat due to the gift being the main event - while I don't love seeing the gift won consistently by athletes off 9m + and it would have been great to see Jake Ireland get up, I agree with foxcatcher that Fielder could take almost anyone to the promised land!

If you really want to, every Stawell result could be questioned in some way in terms of handicapping errors, steward errors or athlete performance to build their mark:
- Michael Ryde fat to fit...been done many times before, and in hindsight he had awesome pedigree to begin with...he's a monty to win an 800 next year isn't he?
- Women's 800 - I reckon every year for the last 10 this forum's cried blue murder to the winner...bloody hard to handicap
- Women's 400 - surely training is for fitness, but if she wants to pay race entry fee to gain fitness good luck to her. As mentioned, the handicapper didn't lift her, but yes a 56 to 51 would raise eyebrows without knowing the context
- Davidson 550 - allocated 25m for Stawell in 2019 (didn't run) and next 550 the following season was given 40m and has moved out to 60m+ pretty fast. Played system well or handicapping errors or both?
- Vets 800 winner - first season, started off 100m and by 5th run which he won was off 142m!!!
- Vets 300 winner - reckon he has moved out pretty quickly in a couple of years, and I don't love Vets running a 300 at meets, closely followed by running a 400 and getting a lift
- Women's 120 - it was raised on facebook as to why winner hadn't tried to qualify for nationals, and Robbo responded that it was clear from VAL what times on track would put his runner in jeopardy of a handicap adjustment...fantastic management
- 120 men's - think Ollie Wurm sums it up best - the astute Nick Fiedler

What can I do to win a Stawell sash:
- As I've heard many a football coach say - 'control what you can control', which is clearly my performance and my training
- Get not only an awesome aths coach, but someone who understands the system and knows how to maximise it for each athlete
- Get a great squad around me to train with.

I don't rate any trainer whose only modus operandi is to deceive and lie constantly to  the handicapper to develop and nurture a relationship the extent they get advantages over other coaches, then proceed to completely f*** the handicapper over. If I was a handicapper, you do that to me once, you will never be trusted again and your days would be numbered.
The same trainers are hypocrites, who will cry blue murder if one of their athletes cops an NAP, UP, penalty reduction, fined or suspended. They want it both ways and that's the problem. They want to shit over the integrity of the sport, but act as if they are innocent when they are caught out.
I'm in a stable that refuses to run dead. We also don't try to con the handicapper to give us unearned marks. We leave the handicapper to do his job. We've won races at Stawell, not a lot, but none were by deception. We respect the handicapper's got a hard job, we don't want to make it any harder.

I think most will respect Fiedler's ability to get his athletes primed for the big song and dance. The frustrating part is the formulaic approach he and his athletes take which so obvious that its annoying and disrespectful to everyone watching and the athletes competing. So evidently there is an issue with the VAL's system which requires reconsideration. If athletes move up quickly with the tick system and then they receive bonus lifts on top; then shouldn't the two cancel each other out? Would that make the playing field more fair?

And with the Tom Pellow disqualification; I don't see how Pellow's run is any different from Harrison Kerr's runs leading to his Stawell win. The latter I consider more insulting because he has been in the sport for years and should know better. Pellow and Kerr started their seasons off 7.75m. Pellow moved to the limit and Kerr moved to 9.25. Pellow went from 13.5 to 12.25 and Kerr went from 13.0 to 11.85. The difference is one was disqualified while the other took home $40,000 plus a 120m and two 70m wins/cheques during the season. Does that seem comparably fair?

Birdman wrote:adding samy latu to the blackbook for next years gift, big improver at stawell this year and caught my eye
peter budge was a well earnt win and was the form athlete heading in
and the masters races were quality as always, its time for stawell to put some money into them

Improver?
Do you not watch these races from the stable?
Time and time again I tell you they are instructed to run dead or place behind someone then instructed to merge into semis or placing a.
Sami latu ran 11.42 at states pulling up then all of the sudden made the bull Howard final.
Getting knocked out of 70 heats.

He will be up next year either breaking the restricted at Stawell or in the Stawell gift final.
Don’t assume they improve.
They just play the game.

I think as always the answer to all the amazing improvements/handbrakes all season/lifts then hiding/team tactics and peaking? is how much is a stawell sash worth?
Excluding the gifts where 40 grand is significant coin are all the other finals worth playing the game for?
Lets say you are a 400 runner is it better to retire after 10 years with a castlemaine wangaratta ballarat beachside and rye sash but no stawell or nothing but a stawell sash?
My small squad takes every win and whilst we understand the history and mystigue of stawell we travel up each year knowing we can never win.
Personally i feel for all the organisers of every other gift on the calender when so many squads just go there run half pace and then pray on tuesday lunchtime they go forward a metre.
Dont get me wrong stawell is an incredible weekend and it was nice to back the 2 gift winners who as i posted last week looked pretty obvious under the current system.
In summary again excluding the gifts i just wish the coaches of the big squads would realise that a waverley sash and a stawell sash dont look very different on your wall in 20 years time

Castlemaine jim
The first 3/4 of your soliloquy you were talking the truth. Cudos

Then you lost it mate. You knocking back a few bundies while writing ?
A Stawell sash and a waverly sash are entirely different prospects

Ladies and Gentlemen, Welcome to the Frontmarkers Stawell Gift, bought to you by Team Fielder Coach.

Richo and Tamsyn just writing there broadcast script for the new event in 2025.

The way I see it, one of the main reasons this squad is successful is most coaches and athletes don't engage in the same dubious behaviour. The "coach" in question relies on most of us being honest, acting in good faith and showing respect for the handicapper and stewards.  So it makes it easy for someone who has questionable ethics or standards to be successful. To say that other coaches need to engage in the same behaviour to win at Stawell is preposterous. If we ALL did it, the sport would be a farce. Total anarchy. The Stawell Gift final would be 6 guys between 9 and 10 who all milked the system.
There has to be some avenue to Stawell success for those squads who act in good faith, refuse to run dead and don't want to scam the handicapper.
It appears there might have been some enabling from people in high places to protect certain squads from scrutiny. So first thing is anyone connected to stables with a history of dubious conduct cannot be on the board or have any role to do with handicapping, including the HRP.

I concur with Castlemaine Jim. There's a hundreds of fantastic athletes who don't have a Stawell sash but have much more respect in the sport because of the honorable way in which they applied themselves. A sash from Stawell is not what it use to be.

Comparing 100/120m RPM improvements of the athletes in the final this year..

1st Jack Lacey – 0.1176 to 0.1100 through the season (approx. 0.9sec improvement over 4 months)

2nd Jake Ireland – 0.1188 to 0.1066 through the season (approx. 1.45sec improvement over 4 months)

3rd Endale Mekennon – 0.1130 to 0.1068 through the season (approx. 0.75sec improvement over 5 months)

4th Maki Loukeris – 0.1186 to 0.1087 through the season (approx. 1.20sec of improvement over 5 months)

5th Brad Hunt – 0.1204 to 0.1082 through the season (approx. 1.45sec of improvement over 4 months, finding approx. 1.25 seconds of that improvement over 3 weeks to win a lift, improvement curve 4x greater than Tom Pellow who was DQ)

6th Jerome Lugo – 0.1147 to 0.1113 through the season (approx. 0.40sec improvement over 3 months)

Looking at the progressions of the 6 finalists from the Mens gift this year it is clear you usually have to take the mickey out of the system/handicapper to get there. 6 different coaches managed these athletes so it is difficult to suggest that one coach is playing the system worse than the others, especially when 3 other athletes in that race improved more than him.

Perhaps something needs to be done about the system rewarding athletes with lifts who improve absurd amounts during the season. If there was a transparent counter measure in the VAL Guidelines the Gift would be less of a joke.

Rather than listing each athlete’s slowest rpm from pre Xmas J-Rod, why not list their bonus winning RPM from throughout the season? Every athlete’s RPM across a variation of distances will always improve as a season progresses. Yes, there were some dramatic improvements over a short period of time for some. The system doesn’t work if there isn’t more steward scrutiny with week to week runs, gaining ticks with minimal effort.

The RPM you used for Jake was when he did his hamstring at Terang and ambled across the line.

Sheesh J-Rod! Kick a man while he’s down

Clearly not a big ‘pro running’ man if you didn’t hustle out to Terang. Surely you saw me cracking the sads with ice on my hammy

Same for Loukeris J-Rod. You listed his Cobden RPM. No one ran fast there! Try his 0.1086 when he won Terang.
Clearly showing your loyalties, with skewed statistics.
No prizes for guessing who gained the most lifts before their bonus lift.

And don’t tell me you’re going after Endale who WON Cobden when it was underwater and in the middle of October, compared to Easter Saturday… nearly 6 months later. God forbid an athlete improves his times from a preseason, clearly J-Rod knows nothing about athletic performance

No loyalty nor harsh feelings towards any athlete in the final. Simply listing a set of statistics to show that one particular coach is no worse than many others. Unaware of any injuries.

No attempts made to skew statistics simply posted the raw facts. In regards to slow tracks, whilst I did not make it to Stawell this year I have been made aware of how much water the ground took which would have slowed it down significantly.

Definitely not going after Endale. I had money on him so was disappointed to see the heat run on Saturday show he was going to be unable to run fast in the final on Monday. And Irelands performance, regardless of previous RPM improvement was impressive to say the least. 122m race and he'd have won by half a metre.

Have a solid understanding of athletic performance. Enough to know that these rates of improvement are so far outside the realm of possibility for trained athletes. We have all ran dead, guilty as charged. Most of these boys just did it better than us because they (unlike the majority of us on here talking about it) have an SG final to their name.

Full time Olympic athletes will generally improve a max of 2-3 tenths in a 6 month season. Somehow our part time pros can manage 5x that? Come on..

I’m so confused. How did Endale running the fastest heat show he was going to be unable to run fast in the final?

And how is winning the very first race of the season running dead?

And comparing 100 rpm’s to 120rpm’s is also laughable and shows a complete lack of understanding on how they work.

This has to be a deliberate troll. No one is this clueless

J-Rod you have no idea how to analyse ‘raw facts’ when comparing different tracks, weather conditions and athlete performance from one meet to the next. Choosing their slowest performance, when they ran significantly faster within days/ week demonstrates you wanted to see your so called unrealistic rate of improvement.
3 x finalists go their win early without any lift. 2 x finalists took a win after 0.25m lift. 1 x finalist gained a full metre lift before taking a win.

Easier Said Than Run wrote:J-Rod you have no idea how to analyse ‘raw facts’ when comparing different tracks, weather conditions and athlete performance from one meet to the next. Choosing their slowest performance, when they ran significantly faster within days/ week demonstrates you wanted to see your so called unrealistic rate of improvement.
3 x finalists go their win early without any lift. 2 x finalists took a win after 0.25m lift. 1 x finalist gained a full metre lift before taking a win.

People on here always talk about slow tracks but why don't the athletes winning on these slow tracks improve over a second to Stawell as well?

timrosen35 wrote:I’m so confused. How did Endale running the fastest heat show he was going to be unable to run fast in the final?

And how is winning the very first race of the season running dead?

And comparing 100 rpm’s to 120rpm’s is also laughable and shows a complete lack of understanding on how they work.

This has to be a deliberate troll. No one is this clueless

Have been to around 15 Stawell gifts. And watched the entire live stream this year. Not once have I personally seen an athlete win who ran scared in their heat. Gift winners just do what they need to on Saturday and let Monday results do the talking. DRC ran a very fast heat but he was calm and collected and did not appear to be out to prove a point to anyone.

J-Rod
In a forum full of freezing cold takes, you have taken the cake for the year. You’ve had a stinker.
15 Stawell gifts, hardly saying much. Foxy has been to well over 30 in his life.

Foxcatcher wrote:J-Rod
In a forum full of freezing cold takes, you have taken the cake for the year. You’ve had a stinker.
15 Stawell gifts, hardly saying much.  Foxy has been to well over 30 in his life.

Not sure what that odd flex is supposed to prove? I am not saying I have been to more stawell gifts than anyone else, I am only 42 and the gift has been around for nearly 150 years. I am simply saying that I personally have not seen an athlete run scared on the Saturday and still win. But seeing as you've been to well over 30 can you name the athletes who ran scared on Saturday and still won?

J-Rod wrote:

Foxcatcher wrote:J-Rod
In a forum full of freezing cold takes, you have taken the cake for the year. You’ve had a stinker.
15 Stawell gifts, hardly saying much.  Foxy has been to well over 30 in his life.

Not sure what that odd flex is supposed to prove? I am not saying I have been to more stawell gifts than anyone else, I am only 42 and the gift has been around for nearly 150 years. I am simply saying that I personally have not seen an athlete run scared on the Saturday and still win. But seeing as you've been to well over 30 can you name the athletes who ran scared on Saturday and still won?

Ran scared ? 12.07 fastest heat time is far from running scared.