under the radar

Big dance is not far away, who is under the radar so far?

Some big performances recently at Amos, who has been watching and noticing, does this impact handicaps if no one updates PBs

No one updates PB’s? Says who?
Every amateur runner is obligated to update their PB. Not sure what you’re implying here. Who specifically is on their wrong mark based on PB? Don’t forget to follow the guidelines and take into account track/wind adjustments.

Hope I’m not throwing anyone under the bus, but I think if Mitchell O’Neill runs, he will go very well off his 4.75-5m.
With Eddie Nketia entered again, he should most likely be running off scratch again, which puts him right in the 12.25 spot. Maybe another final for big boy?

Would absolutely LOVE to see Eddie run 12.2 again off scratch and make the final. He was one of the highlights of last year for mine. Stawell could be his last race for a while too!

timrosen35 wrote:No one updates PB’s? Says who?
Every amateur runner is obligated to update their PB. Not sure what you’re implying here. Who specifically is on their wrong mark based on PB? Don’t forget to follow the guidelines and take into account track/wind adjustments.

Hey Tim,
You are right, all athletes should be adding all amateur performances whether a PB or not on VAL database.

Unfortunately on an historical basis I can assure you all this doesn't happen, instead all too often handicappers need to go searching for athletes results outside of the VAL which is where incorrect handicaps can then be applied or allotted to athletes whether new to VAL or past runners with a handicap already set.

Here's a hypothetical for you all to consider:

* runner A runs a new PB 1 day prior to a VAL sanctioned meeting.
* runner A is allotted a handicap at that VAL sanctioned meeting 1 day after his/her new PB which is 0.25m more than they had at their last VAL sanctioned meeting as they are an OGA athlete.
* runner A wins the VAL sanctioned race and as such is now entitled to an additional 0.25m lift as part of the Stawell Bonus system.

I do hope runner A submitted or declared their new PB prior to running in VAL sanctioned meeting in which he/she subsequently won the race in question?

If runner A didn't declared their new PB what should be the consequences?

Look forward to all your responses, remember this is just a hypothetical!

Any amateur athlete who doesn’t submit their pb/sb times should be treated harsher if the handicapper then finds the time in my opinion. With the current rules in place, there’s absolutely no reason to hide times. The adjustments make it very fair for track runners. All you’re doing by not submitting a time is taking up more of the handicappers time to search results. This isn’t acceptable at all.

timrosen35 wrote:Any amateur athlete who doesn’t submit their pb/sb times should be treated harsher if the handicapper then finds the time in my opinion. With the current rules in place, there’s absolutely no reason to hide times. The adjustments make it very fair for track runners. All you’re doing by not submitting a time is taking up more of the handicappers time to search results. This isn’t acceptable at all.

Hey Tim,
What if the above hypothetical is in fact reality? What should be the penalty for both athlete and coach?

Thankfully the “hypothetical/reality” athlete did submit their times before winning the race. So all is ok in this situation

But if they didn’t, I would take the race away from them. You have to submit times. It’s simply unfair to the handicapper not to. They shouldn’t have to search.

With tonight's results and Bree running a new 11.23 pb. We can predict her being the backmarker.
1. Does the field get lifted.
2. The frontmarkers limit gets moved to 12m. ????

Naa is entered as well. With faster PB and into a headwind. So why would you assume that?

Also I’d say even if there was a field lift the limit won’t change. It’s already at 11. Unless it’s more than 1m.

I believe the limit with get extended to 12m.

Why do fields get lifted in a race rather than the backmarker run extra? The handicaps have been so finely tuned for so long but then are thrown out of whack when shifted forward and everybody runs a different percentage of the race. If you're starting X metres behind somebody you have a metre or two less distance/time to catch them than you would if the backmarker wasn't added. It brings multiplication and division into it rather than addition and subtraction. Given how close some races have been lately it could easily be a factor.

I partially agree with you JD. I don’t like seeing fields lifted but also don’t like someone running more than the race is. I don’t have a solution, thinking about what ceiling is, if you set it for the current Aus records as an example so everyone starts from scratch or infront, your ceiling for the womens race would be 13.3 this I think would severely negatively effect the rest of the field if the limit was to remain around 11m.

No idea what the best approach is but like I said partially agree with the lifting of the field causing headaches imo.

It sounds odd that somebody is running 121 or so metres in a 120m race but surely it's the answer. It happens in golf when somebody goes below scratch they go to +1 etc. Marc Leishman has returned to play in local competitions at Warrnambool on a handicap of +8, you can't just change the handicap system to allow for this happening on the odd occasion, they have to go the other way or you can't cater properly for the regulars.

At some point, you have to stop lifting the field. Bree, Naa and Torrie could probably push the field out 1m, but if Zoe Hobbs ever entered… you’d have no choice but to put her behind scratch

At what stage does the handicapper review handicaps/Stawell lifts?  If you break ceiling in a 70m does this impact your handicap?

gcollie1974 wrote:At what stage does the handicapper review handicaps/Stawell lifts?  If you break ceiling in a 70m does this impact your handicap?

Performances over 70m generally don’t affect your 100/120m mark, except potentially in extreme circumstances for an OGA athlete, but even then the handicappers have shown a reluctance to do so. It would be surprising if someone lost their Stawell lift.

gcollie1974 wrote:At what stage does the handicapper review handicaps/Stawell lifts?  If you break ceiling in a 70m does this impact your handicap?

If you asking about 70m ceiling time in relation to the open 120m SG then I agree with Tom. If you are asking in relation to the 70m and breaking ceiling regarding the 70m for the upcoming weekend, this would impact your 70m handicap for the following season since Ringwood is non penalty. Dion Paul won the 70m last year at Ringwood and didn't receive the 0.25m lift for 70m which others did  for the Stawell 70m. So you could argue Ringwood is non penalty , however you may miss out on the standard 0.25 which others well get at that distance.

Breaking ceiling 7.60 for 70m and adjusted for rubber (0.15) 7.45, has not been done this season from memory. Winners are right on ceiling but not inside. The 70m winner was inside ceiling at Frankston but that was with a big adjustment to wind and I don't think it was that strong.

The ceiling time in the 70m will get close to a nudge this w/e at Ringwood.

Finals field have been very close of late on grass (Shep) and track (Bendy) so i suspect pending nice conditions with a light tail maybe, we'll see a winning time of around 7.30-7.40 (7.45-7.55 - with the allowance applied).

It would be fair to say the women's gift result could well have been different this year if the field had been lifted. In most cases it would have meant O'Dwyer would have had less track to chase Pasquali down, but in this case with Pasquali's bad start it could have gone the other way with her lunge at the end being too late.

As it turned out they ran off the marks that had been determined over years of racing and it was a cracker of a race. If the field had been lifted all of the talk would be 'what if'.

It's an absolute no-brainer that elite backmarkers being added to a race have to run extra rather than disrupt the regular runners' handicaps by practically bringing the finish line forward without shrinking the handicaps by the same proportion, which you can't unless the increments were 10cm rather than 25cm.

Who’s winning masters, women’s and men’s performance of the year?