Handicapping and Stewarding System Forum

[Guest]

The update sent out from the SAAL Forum which only had 8 athletes or coaches attend (the remainder of those attending where committee or handicappers) still produced 20 issues.

The "ready system" after 3 years still as we all knew irrespective of the forum input is flawed and needs to go. Unfortunately unless you vote out Colin and the other 2 up for re-election at the next AGM this tripe will continue to be served up again and again, year after year and will never be right.

[StevieBee]

Don't know who Peter Brennan is but he must have just joined the SAAL
But they did do a survey when colin first came in suggesting they didn't want the system

[Z Score]

Issues and solutions to be investigated to improve system
Issue – Under 18 athletes had an advantage over more experienced athletes in senior races because of they
have a greater ability to improve
Possible Solution – Caps on U18 athletes
Issue – Some runners and coaches chose to not compete in order to protect an over-inflated handicap
Possible Solution – Runners need to record a minimum amount of times in the current season to be
allocated their full handicap
Issue – Z score system not well understood by the athletics community and the Z score calculation has
needed constant refining since its introduction
Possible Solution – Investigate other options other than Z Scores for stewarding purposes
Issue – 70m and 200m times not used for 120m handicaps
Possible Solution – Re-examine how 70m and 200m conversions could be used so more data can help set
120m handicaps
Issue – Handicapper discretion seen to be applied inconsistently
Possible Solution – Define the need for handicapper discretion more specifically
Issue – Track and wind adjustments not accurate enough
Possible Solution – Adjustments made on the average difference on how all runners normally run to how
they run on that day
Issue – Limits for major women’s races different to men’s major races despite competing for the same level
of prizemoney
Possible Solution – Make limits the same
Issue – Currently there are no limits for the smaller prizemoney races at the Bay Sheffield Carnival
Possible Solution – Make limits determined by race category rather than level of prizemoney
Issue – No distance reduction in 70m
Possible Solution – Implementation of 70m distance reduction
Issue – Novice reduction too severe early and too generous later on
Possible Solution – Quicken up the degradation of the novice reduction early on and slow it down later on
Issue – Runners who have only competed at ASA are too competitive too soon in SAAL races
Possible Solution – Make ASA results count for less when calculating handicaps
Issue – Results from 3 seasons ago can be irrelevant for older veterans due to slowing down due to ageing
Possible Solution – Re-examine the 3-year category used for older veterans
Issue – Winners of a higher category race are put in a position where they can sometimes win for the
second time off a similar mark in the following 2-3 years
Possible Solution – Winners in higher category races should have a standard pull in that race for the
following 2-3 years
Issue – A runner can turn up and run off a win penalty without trying
Possible Solution – Win penalties do not degrade for a NAP (non-acceptable performance)
Issue – Distance reduction differences are still not providing an even competition between males and
females in combined races
Possible Solution – Change distance reduction in combined races or program separate male and female
races wherever possible
Issue – Some runners not competitive or making finals throughout the whole season
Possible Solution – Lifts for runners who are not winning (revisit video from Brett Stokes from last year)
Issue – The system is too negative because runners are constantly being pulled back
Possible Solution – Reduce handicaps initially for all runners and lift a runner’s handicap when they
continually compete
Issue – Handicaps too inflated in too many races
Possible Solution – Change target time to reduce all handicaps or take backmarker back to scratch in all
races
Issue – Too many runners are not performing to their best throughout the season
Possible Solution – Investigate appropriate and meaningful ways to steward in all races
Issue – The conversion for synthetic tracks is not reflective of what difference the synthetic track makes
Possible Solution – Re-examine the conversion for synthetic tracks
Steve McBain asked that the 25% of results used for long-term regular competitors be reviewed to see if it
does not overtly inflate handicaps and cause stewarding issues.
Peter Brennan suggested a survey be distributed to all members and ask for feedback before the
Handicapping Sub-Committee sorts through the issues.

[Z Score]

Yes Stevie, nearly two thirds of members did not want the system when the last survey was done.Not sure where Peter was then , but guess he knows the percentage would be a lot less now because a lot of those two thirds have gone to athleticssa.Wise move to have another survey and then say , See the majority loves it even pod.
The saal dont want a nationsal handicapping system but freely mention that the distance handicapping is being done from interstate.
Saying the handicapping discretion is being applied inconssistantly, look at the handicappers , they have no idea.Bring back, Shane G, Leon B, Gary Z, and Paul Y
Ive put this post from saal app on this forum for you Vics to read through, almost all the issues point to going back to the tried and true old fashion way of handicapping.
3 years ago this system was 100% ready to go , thats what we were told.
Where are the management committee members who brought this system in, they have all done a ghost.
I reckon vote for Colin at the AGM because two more years of the same and we wont need anymore AGMs

[StevieBee]

Are these the actual minutes of the meeting ?

[Z Score]

Are these the actual minutes of the meeting ?

As it says at the top, these are the issues and possible solutions.
No these are not the minutes, if you want the full brief its on saal app.
The issues are pretty much what everyone has been beating the door down with and they arent listening.
Repair all the issues and you are back to the handicapping system we had 4 years ago or that of which the val has.
One complete circle.

[Guest]

I love how Peter Brennan is now asking for a survey. By all accounts it was suggested that if the handicap system was removed he would quit.
Is he now suggesting the question needs to be surveyed again?
Is he asking for the survey to remove the terrible attempts at "discretion" or is he asking for the survey to remove the terrible handicap system?

There is no doubt Peter's involvement is valuable but could be much better served without the controversy the handicap system brings with it and his connection with the system.

[SA Whisperer]

Is Peter still getting $ as he was when the handicapping system began.
Wonder he doesnt suggest to have a survey among centre managemet only

[StevieBee]

Issue – Too many runners are not performing to their best throughout the season

Wasn't the system meant to stop this?
Surely by now people understand the Z Score. It's not hard its just a dart thrown at manipulated data.

Surely Colin knows that the Australian professional runners know about the deal at Glenelg Oval.
You know the one that's already been signed. The one that will ruin the league...
And we know about the cash for mates, this handicapping system was brought in for.

[Z Score]

Is the saal part of the Glenelg oval master plan which is being rolled out in 5 stages for a completion in 2020.Now in to stage 2.
So much easier to get funding and grants if more sporting bodies are using the arena.

[SA Whisperer]

Look , lets see it for what it is ,
3 to 4 years ago we are told the system is 100% ready to tee off.
3 to 4 years later a meeting is held, where the majority , YES the majority of attendees are either management committee, handicapers or hold a position with the saal and they come up with 20 issues of the handicapping.
YES the majority at the meeting hold down positions with in saal yet came up with 20 issues of the system.

[Z Score]

Look , lets see it for what it is ,
3 to 4 years ago we are told the system is 100% ready to tee off.
3 to 4 years later a meeting is held, where the majority , YES the majority of attendees are either management committee, handicapers or hold a position with the saal and they come up with 20 issues of the handicapping.
YES the majority at the meeting hold down positions with in saal yet came up with 20 issues of the system.

Sounds like they went A hunting and shot themselves in the foot

[StevieBee]

Look , lets see it for what it is ,
3 to 4 years ago we are told the system is 100% ready to tee off.
3 to 4 years later a meeting is held, where the majority , YES the majority of attendees are either management committee, handicapers or hold a position with the saal and they come up with 20 issues of the handicapping.
YES the majority at the meeting hold down positions with in saal yet came up with 20 issues of the system.

Sounds like they went A hunting and shot themselves in the foot

So they've basically DQ runners knowing the system isn't 100%. One would think they've used this failed system as a witch hunt

[Guest]

The problem associated with all of this is the President has not been able to sort any of this out. He has had 2 years and still here we are.
Now they hold these meetings, the Bay Sheffield discussion forum, the handicapping forum, why?
I'll tell you why, they have no idea on how to solve any of this, they have no ideas, they are all out of ideas.
Its a case of we cant fix it so what ideas do you have to fix it.

Of course we all know how it can be fixed but they flatly refuse to accept this as an option purely from outright stubbornness and ignorance.

[SA Whisperer]

The handicapping system is a shambles and the handicappers have no knowledge on how to handicap.
I will give you an example of an athlete , new to the sport , not a star but would really enjoy pro athletics , or could have.
I dont expect athletes to be gifted wins although I have seen plenty of it happening.
This particular athlete came out and off their handicap finished 28 seconds behind the second last placegetter in their heat , yep second last place getter you read right.
They then started in a 550m and finished 28 seconds behind the second last placegetter in their heat , yep you read right second last placegetter again , so yes they finished last if you cant work it out.
Surely by this time , if you have any knowledge at all you would think the athlete would need a bit of help, but NO their next start over 400m they finish 14 seconds behind the second last place getter again.
Certainly wasnt any danger of catching covid.
You ask me where the athlete is now ..........I dont know.
I havent made this shit up and can provide the days of comp and name if anyone wants to PM me.

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